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| Clarion to Windev Conversion |
| Iniciado por guest, 11,nov. 2014 03:46 - 24 respuestas |
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| Publicado el 11,noviembre 2014 - 03:46 |
Hi all,
This is my 1st time here and I just have a quick question that hopefully someone can answer.
I work for a company that has an application that currently is in Clarion 6 and we have been in the process of going to Windev 17 (have bought 15 and 16 but are now using 17).
The question I have is, how should it take for the completion of this?
Its currently taken 2 years and we are still approx 2-3 months away...
Is this normal? |
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| Publicado el 11,noviembre 2014 - 08:40 |
Hi,
No - Should not take more than a day ot two.
But if the App is complicated, maybe a little more time is needed. <img src="/NG2013_WEB/ui/smiley/1.gif" align=absmiddle border=0 alt=":)">
Cheers
Tor-Bjarne |
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| Publicado el 11,noviembre 2014 - 08:46 |
Hi,
can you tell us more what type of system you try to convert and the database ? is the conversion done by one person?
I recommend that you use atleast windev18 or windev 19 , version prior 18 is not fully unicode support . |
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| Publicado el 11,noviembre 2014 - 10:07 |
Without knowing more details we can hardly tell you.
Maybe you can give us some more info:
- what business is this application used for
- how many users are using it
- will it be used in-office (I guess so being it a Clarion app) or offline (in the field)
- aprox how many windows
- aprox how many reports
- what (new) database do you prefer. Is it "topspeed" now, which I woulld replace. So do you need the mssql, oracle level or is de Windev Hyperfile sufficient. Or maybe even a simple access database
- etc |
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| Publicado el 11,noviembre 2014 - 10:24 |
The difficult is normally done immediately. The impossible takes a a few days longer.
<img src="/NG2013_WEB/ui/smiley/1.gif" align=absmiddle border=0 alt=":)">
JP |
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| Publicado el 11,noviembre 2014 - 13:28 |
| I have done a big project in a half year... |
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| Publicado el 11,noviembre 2014 - 15:51 |
| We are on a huge project (CRM, ERP & EDS) for 1,5 year fte now. It was written in C6 on a MSSQL database. Still 6 months to go. So it all depends on your project size. |
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| Publicado el 12,noviembre 2014 - 04:28 |
Hi guys, thanks for all your replies.
Am I able to DM anyone with more details, I don want to risk bumping into our programmer here. |
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| Publicado el 12,noviembre 2014 - 09:58 |
Hi,
I`ve worked with clarion for approx. 15 years befor I made the switch to WinDev, when you say conversion I read re-write.
Shure there are ways to access tps files from WinDev, but lets face it usually it`s a re-write from the ground up.
2 years does not seem like a huge time (as several people already mentioned it all depends on the project size and complexity).
Also my guess is, if your employee also had to learn WinDev in this period (2 yerars) he (or she) has their hands full.
Why dont you ask your developer why it takes so long time to complete, instead of letting us guess about "challanges" that may or may not have occurred when you people re-wrote your application?
I`ve been using a quite a long time to "convert" my small invoice (cw 6.3) app to a windev app and I`m still not finished, and do not plan to have all the features that my old clarion 6 system has, since it will prolong the development further.
Cheers
Tor-Bjarne |
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| Publicado el 12,noviembre 2014 - 11:04 |
Hi "Just",
Are you using only English (or only French) as the user interface language or do you need to do this in several languages?
If you have several languages, then you are out of luck; it takes ten times longer than planned or expected, due to the incredible bugs in WD's multi-lingual features:(
Best regards
Ola |
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| Publicado el 12,noviembre 2014 - 12:15 |
Hi, "Just wondering"
you are asking a question that is extremely hard to answer, without knowing the details of your projects as established by several other answers...
However, there is also several other elements to consider:
- how many developers were working on the project?
- were they in charge of JUST that, on did they also have to continue maintaining/developing in the old system? Very often, I have seen cases where the company is asking the development team to do so many different things at the same time, and that is good for none of those things.
- and of course, how good are they? Which is, it seems to me, what you are trying to establish here.
Not everybody codes as fast, and clearly, the learning curve in WinDev is quite big, due to the huge amount of functions/possibilities...
So I'm not sure that you will have an answer that really satisfies you here...
Best regards |
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| Publicado el 12,noviembre 2014 - 12:35 |
Hi
Sorry I disagree with you Fabrice
Quote
" Not everybody codes as fast, and clearly, the learning curve in WinDev is quite big, due to the huge amount of functions/possibilities..."
Hmm not nearly as big as c#. I donnot get it when people say that windev or webdev has a big lurning curve. I think it is almoast as easy as it can get. Yes there are lots of things in WX but if you want to create something that can compeet with other apps or the expectations of today's users you need this. In other development apps the lurning curve is way bigger.
Just my opinion
2 Years is in my opinion a long time. I Made my accounting app in about 1.5 year ( not full time , did other stuff as well and I had to lurn windev )
It is my opinion that in develpment moast time is about the thinking on how to do something. I have had several days thinking out how to do something and then coding it took about half a day, or less.
So if you have a clarion app you already know what you want to make. This is a hudge time saver.
By The way I would go for the completely rewrite. You get a nice clean project ready for the future ( taking it to the web etc )
Regards
Allard |
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| Publicado el 12,noviembre 2014 - 12:43 |
Quote
2 Years is in my opinion a long time.
My car runs out of fuel every fifth day, is this normal?
2 years is a long time but what are they trying to do? - Make a new SAP? - then 2 years is a short time for several developers.
So the question (IMHO) is pointless.
Cheers
Tor-Bjarne |
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| Publicado el 12,noviembre 2014 - 14:29 |
Hi Allard
don't be sorry... You (and everybody else) are allowed to disagree with me...
However, I have been using WinDev for more than 20 years now, and I'm still learning all the time.
So it may be a case of me being slow, or of you happy with only a small subset of all that windev can do, and it may be that the developer(s) in question did not have enough time to work on the new project, or just tried to do it the clarion way, instead of switching to WinDev methods...
As many answers as you want, I'm afraid <img src="/NG2013_WEB/ui/smiley/1.gif" align=absmiddle border=0 alt=":-)">
Best regards |
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| Publicado el 12,noviembre 2014 - 15:00 |
Hi Fabrice
I respect your level of experiance. You know way more then I will poblebly ever know regarding WX. and programming in general
What I ment to say is that WX is verry intuitief. I know little of it. But what I KNOWs enough to create real life working applications. The lurning curve inVisual studio / php / java is way more steep. Just to get to the point where you can make a working application.
Java and php have all kinds of frameworks en ways to use it. with a lot more options then WX
Regards
Allard |
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| Publicado el 12,noviembre 2014 - 21:02 |
Ola is talking about a big increase in development time when you create a multi language application. I don't know what bugs Ola is referring to, but we develop multi language applications (English and Dutch). In WinDev it is much faster and easier then we ever experienced in Clarion (using a third party tool for Clarion).
WinDev does have some annoying bugs, but most of them can be handled. In our opinion version 19 crashes a lot. As mentioned in previous posts, the quality control of PCSoft can be improved. Just have a look at the "forgotten" translations in the English version. A lot of messages are in French. |
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| Publicado el 13,noviembre 2014 - 01:53 |
Wow!!!
I didn't think my question would cause such debate.
Im going to give as much info as I can without the possibility of causing a conflict with our developer (who I'm hoping doesn't come on this forum)
We have 1 programmer who works from home, we are re-wrtting our whole application from scratch in Windev (previously in Clarion)
Every now and then he is pulled to address some minor bugs in our current Clarion version. But not too often.
Our software has roughly 15-25 screens, 20-30 reports, appointment book, client database, stock control, Point of Sale, marketing and all the bells and whistles that come with most POS software and its only in english.
The reason why I bring it up here is because I would like to get another opinion on why it has taken so long, for at the moment all the info we have is what our programmer is telling us and my boss is very protective of him and the issue.
Now I'm not saying that he is taking us for a ride, but I would just like to know more info, kinda like if my regular doctor who I go to all the time and like a lot tells me I have something wrong, I'd always like to get a 2nd, maybe even 3rd opinion.
Its starting to cost our business money by not being able to keep up with our opposition and our clients that have been loyal and have been hearing the same thing from me about this update are starting to leave. |
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| Publicado el 13,noviembre 2014 - 01:54 |
Also please feel free to private message me, if you want more direct info.
I really do appreciate the help and the discussion. |
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| Publicado el 13,noviembre 2014 - 10:52 |
Hi,
Well I have some experience in doing POS with clarion and windev (My site <a class="ExternalLink" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.posview.no">www.posview.no</a> ) is our attempt to show something that has been in beta for a while now. I have used a couple of years on this but must admint that I Prioritize my POS System down for "Work on the hour".
So what are the challanges of POS? - It depends, but here`s what I found:
I also would like the "bells and whistles" so I used a considerably amount of time, enabling our "dealers" the possibillity to "Draw and design" the POS solution for each type of business. Totally re-writing everything from the ground up compared with our clarion POS Solution.
Then it`s all the different and specialized hardware it must support (And software must be written for).:
- Open/Close cashdrawer via Receipt printer
- Payment terminals
- Scanners
- Customer display
- Scales
Then of course some stores have several branches so a strategy for deploying new products, change in price information that has to be distributed, and a roll up of sales data to the head office must be considered.
- Do we talk replication, file transfer ot what?
- Then is the POS System made for Hour sale? - Like Hairdressers - you need code for handling time-splitted appointments (Since the person is coloration in their hair, another one can get a haircut at the same time) sitting with with the ordered work (as in product) attached to the appointment. A lot of work only this small part.
- Then you have to do the whole Backoffice part, not a VISUAL part of the POS.
I think a period of a couple of years seems about right if one person is to do all this, do support, learn WinDev, etc.
And: Sorry to all if I sounded a bit harsh in my comments, I`ve read my own postings a second time and they might be considered a bit agressive, that I am absolute not. 
Cheers
Tor-Bjarne |
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| Publicado el 13,noviembre 2014 - 15:53 |
I'm not agree with Tor-Bjarne. Be a pro , if people pay you to do convertion , people expect you know both languages . no one want to pay you to take your sweet time to learn a programming language . that is totally waste of money.
when I convert my POS+ backend software written in clarion to windev, it took me 2 months .
no matter how big or complex the system . 2 years is way too long . unless that person work as part time |
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| Publicado el 13,noviembre 2014 - 18:54 |
Quote
ccc2
I'm not agree with Tor-Bjarne. Be a pro , if people pay you to do convertion , people expect you know both languages . no one want to pay you to take your sweet time to learn a programming language . that is totally waste of money.
when I convert my POS+ backend software written in clarion to windev, it took me 2 months .
no matter how big or complex the system . 2 years is way too long . unless that person work as part time
Hi I agree to some degree if you are an rented consultant, rented in to do a plain conversion.
But if you are an emplyee and has coded in clarion for a long period, and sombody (the developer himself for that matter) go windev, there is a learning curve that wil add to the development phase.
I find it sad that the the developer cant speak for himself on why it took 2 years (and 3 months) - what is the reason?
He could be lazy, greedy etc.
But I`m shure thats not the reason. Did he work 7,5 - 12 hours a day on the project?
If he worked 1 hour a week, is 2 years still "unbelivable"?
Perhaps I can muck up a generic POS system in 2 weeks now with windev, but development time still depends on:
Features to include (My own "draw the user interface" is an example of that (Time consuming, but can be skipped if you are in a hurry))
Changes wished by users/managers during the deveopment phase, and how mutch re-write this cost.
How many classes & code do you have in your WinDev library. (If you come from cw it`s none)
Is the spesification written on yellow stick it paper.
How mutch nterference is it within the development cycle.
etc.etc.
And ccc2 I`m struggling to be a pro, that is why I say the information is way too thin to give a estimat/reason. <img src="/NG2013_WEB/ui/smiley/6.gif" align=absmiddle border=0 alt=";)">
I could have said as I did in my first Proffesional posting: "A day or two", ahh you want this to? - Well three days then.
Cheers
Tor-Bjarne |
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| Publicado el 13,noviembre 2014 - 21:06 |
Hi all
I studied and played around with WD first for some 10 years, doing only some small windows- and internet-specific additions to my old DOS-based CRM/ERP/Import-Export/Web-site generator/Publishing house system. I have now worked intensively with my new similar Windev-system for some 4 years, and now it has all the features of the old system, plus then some. It currently has 97 data files, 243 three-lingual (Finnish-English-French), mostly template-based windows, 65 reports, 47 queries, 13 sets of procedures, 156 000 mostly commented code lines plus 60 000 lines of separate comments. Mostly procedural code. Without French I might have been two times faster. Or by placing French into some other language's "slot", in which case I could have avoided the special secret coding for the privileged handling of the French language, which have caused ridiculous problems.
I am quite happy with the result, with the exception of the rather slowly reacting incremental search in browsing windows, which obviously can't be helped in Windows. In my previous DOS app this was lightning fast.
"Just"'s project seems rather small, but of course it may be complicated. An unexperienced (in WD) developer probably runs into several big problems in a conversion project like this.
The fact is that WD often loses its marbles and starts to behave in an unpredictable way. For instance (totally correct) changes made in the code may suddenly be totally ignored by Windev and not work at all when running a test on it, and then you are flabbergasted, trying to find a work-around and wasting hours or even days of your time, simply because you are not aware of WD's bad habbits and how to fix the behaviour of WD itself (= delete the appname.cpl subdirectory).
Also it is not unusual that the developer still thinks in the terms of his old tool. If hammer is your favorite tool, then all problems look like nails, while some of them really are screws... I also found this the hard way, coming from the age old Clarion CPD, which worked like charm and had virtually no bugs. It was very difficult to learn to live with WD's peculiarities and countless bugs.
I was used to the excellent two-way RAD generator of Clarion, so I wasted a lot of time trying to tame WD's crappy one-way RAD generator to better suit me. Then when WD introduced templates, and got the worst bugs out of them (took several versions), it finally was possible to use Windev in a somewhat similar way to Clarion RAD, and I was able to start the real work in WD.
The wlanguage is actually quite similar to the old Clarion CPD language (on which also the current Clarion language is based), so I was able to modify many of my global procedures first with search and replace and then fixing the errors. Windows and reports had to be re-done from scratch.
best regards
Ola |
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| Publicado el 14,noviembre 2014 - 02:38 |
Hi again everyone,
Thank you very much for all your input.
I'll deal with the ramifications if there are any (my boss has always said that he wants me to run the company as if its my own) so I guess I'm just doing my due diligence here, in wanting an outsiders opinion....
This is our website. <a class="ExternalLink" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.master.com.au">www.master.com.au</a>
You will see a mini demo of what our software is like, I'll be interested in your responses in what kind of timeframe we should be looking at... |
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| Publicado el 14,noviembre 2014 - 09:49 |
Hi
Well I know a company in Norway (Now I think they got offices in other countries to) that used a whole lot more than 2 years on a proffessional hairdresser POS system.
This is still written in clarion and they are 10 people in the deveopment department.Odin systemer people.
The system is also constantly envolving adding new features with every release.
Since we had the clarion agency for Norway back in the days, I got a "mind blowing demo" of FixIT from mr Jan Roger Jensen at that company, and one of the people I rent for contract work used to work at Odin systemer.
I know they worked together with capesoft on the replicate solution.
It is incredible feature rich - but I Guess that is why their company is the marked leader in Hairdresser POS systems in Norway.
Imagine 1 person to convert this system to WinDev in 2 months, or for that matter 2 years. <img src="/NG2013_WEB/ui/smiley/1.gif" align=absmiddle border=0 alt=":)">
Cheers
Tor-Bjarne |
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Miembro registrado
34 mensajes |
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| Publicado el 10,diciembre 2014 - 17:59 |
We have applications out in both Clarion and Windev. All new development is in Windev for the simple reason of being more supportable. We also program using Visual Studio which is very slow and hard work compared to Windev, despite being the 'industry standard'. I always say, '10 times slower'.
Can you convert Clarion to Windev easily? No. However, you have the screens and the file structures which makes life quite easy to write a replacement.
We've had some of our C# and WD Mobile programs pirated. This was the way it was done. While it is not a simple cloning operation (which makes pursuing these difficult in law) it's a bit obvious when either they use your database structures or the screens look virtually the same. |
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